City Council at Midnight

[Skot David Wilson]

It was fun keeping city council there until after midnight again. I spoke on a few issues: Station Five, Red Light Cameras, Peytons unqualified appointment (Russell), 100/300 sq ft overlay for Springfield (because it would close halfway houses)
I stayed until they left.
Where were any of you?
Legs broke, cars broke down, sick in bed?
I was there, and I know some of you do your part, I really do, but I think if they are there until past midnight every time they'll get the message.
Just think, if one person cost them 15 minutes, what would seven more do (2 hours) or fifteen more (four hours).
We could even go for coffee afterwards....
They would get sick of facing us down, and maybe start doing things right the first time every once in a while.

[downtownparks]

Hey Skot, I am assuming you spoke in favor of the Springfield Overlay change then?

If so, perhaps you should come to the neighborhood and move in next to a 2500 sq foot house that has 20 people in it...

I dont mind your bleeding heart, just let it bleed next to your house and in your community, and not in mine.

[jbm32206]

Hey Skot, I am assuming you spoke in favor of the Springfield Overlay change then?

If so, perhaps you should come to the neighborhood and move in next to a 2500 sq foot house that has 20 people in it...

I dont mind your bleeding heart, just let it bleed next to your house and in your community, and not in mine.
I second that!

[Skot David Wilson]

Okay, think about this.
We're talking about four halfway houses that are state licensed, so the state says they are legal, and they are licensed for 20 people, who otherwise would be on the street. These people are drug tested, have curfews, have jobs, and are rebuilding their lives. The have a high success rate, and are clean and well run. These are people who are serious about rebuilding their lives.
Now, THEY WERE THERE FIRST (the halfway houses).
Using "code" to take away their right to operate and exist is illegal, amoral, and un-American. We're not talking about allowing NEW halfway houses, we're talking retaining the ones which have existed some as much as fifty years.
Some of the people who have gone thru them are now also homeowners in Springfield, and productive members of society.
Just say you developed a taste for hooch, and lost everything. You get lucky enough to get into a halfway house and they feed you, give you a roof, help you get a job, and after you do you pay $18 a day. You get a good breakfast and supper, a comfortable bed, advice and assistance, and support from people who are also seriously trying to rebuild their lives.
Bet if your kids go missing you could knock on their door and have all of them searching inb a heartbeat.
Bet if your house caught fire they'd open their doors and hearts to you and help you without ever asking for anything in return.
Bet if your house was getting broken into or you were getting robbed they would be there defending you.
How dare anyone go get a deal on a house in an area they see as a possible new Riverside or Avondale, fix it up, then kick out the current residents because you don't like the idea of a halfway house. YOU chose to live where they were in the first place!
Again, four houses with a total time there of over a century.
Explain to me just how they are so bad that you want them gone.
The overlay should require any new useage as 300 square foot per resident... but apply that to a family of five living in a 1000 square foor house on the westside. Would you have them get rid of a child?
Charles Dickens needs to write something about you if you would, or if you would destroy one of the best working resources for people in need in operation that gets no money from the city but re-introduces drains upon society back into the fold of productive citizens.
Again, like four existing houses, that provide great quality of life and a real chance for people to start their life over.

[jbm32206]

No, from what I understand...it was a matter of the wording as to the square footage and how many people can occupy the dwelling....and it could easily end up with more people in one dwelling.

Also, Springfield has often been the 'dumping ground' for many homeless; especially since we're right next to downtown and all the shelters and locations that hand out food, etc. Not to mention that once released from Shands, they end up on our streets...contributing to the drug use, hookers, thefts and other criminal activities. Nobody, to my knowledge is trying to shut down the halfway houses, in fact, I've read many positive posts (on other forums) about the residents.

There's also the concern of having sexual offenders dumped into these boarding houses, and all you have to do is go to the FDLE site and type in 32206, you'll see we're loaded with them. This is a family oriented neighborhood, and I for one, don't like having sex offenders as neighbors.

[Señora]

Good posting Skot.

Residents that move into areas like Springfield/Downtown need to take the good with the bad. Otherwise move to the surburbs and stop complaining.

[jbm32206]

That's not fair....we move into this area because it's a great location with wonderful old homes that people have sunk a great deal of money into restoring. Why shouldn't we complain when we become the human dumping ground for the homeless? Why not let us send them to your neighborhood and let them trash it, steal from you and have them using your neighborhood as their toilet?

[downtownparks]

Skot, You dont know what you are talking about on any level. I know the people who run this place quite well (they were the contractors on my house, and the leaders of the neighborhood organizations when I moved here), I know what the effects and benefits of a halfway house are, and I know why there is a zoning overlay. You are running on pure 100% emotion and 0% knowledge. While it may be well intended, it is none-the-less wrong.

100 sq foot per person is inhuman for recovering adults, and is unacceptable on any level. I don't expect them close down. I expect them to be decent to the the people they are claiming to help, rather than shove 25 people in a 2500 sq ft house. Think about Skot. 25 people in a 2500 sq foot house. The reason they need more people in the house is so the can make more money off of these people. Pack em in like sardines to maximize profit.

The Springfield Zoning Overlay was put in place because Springfield was a dumping ground for years. The city passed the overlay in order to bring Springfield back, and allow it to return to being a healthy thriving community it once was. If you feel this strongly about keeping them open, I encourage you to open it up next to your house, and move them in. I am certain they will be peaceful and quiet, how ever many dozens they manage to shove in there.


They don't have to close, they just have to reduce the number of people in the home to get legal. But they don't want to lose the income. Plain and simple. By their own admission, they have 19 people in that 2500 sq foot house. That is nutty.

[downtownparks]

Good posting Skot.

Residents that move into areas like Springfield/Downtown need to take the good with the bad. Otherwise move to the surburbs and stop complaining.

Maybe we can run as a city council candidate for the Springfield district while living in PV Beach.

Person of the people as always. Boy we dodged a bullet on that one.

[jbm32206]

Thank you Dan....people would feel much differently when it's in their neighborhood. And you're right, it's about making it fair for the residents of those places and the profits they make off them!

[Señora]

"Envy is a complex and puzzling emotion. It is, notoriously, one of the seven deadly sins. It is very commonly charged with being unreasonable, irrational, imprudent, and vicious."

[Señora]

and of course Stupid.

[jbm32206]

"Envy is a complex and puzzling emotion. It is, notoriously, one of the seven deadly sins. It is very commonly charged with being unreasonable, irrational, imprudent, and vicious."
:don't Know" So whom is envious and of what?

[jbm32206]

and of course Stupid.
I do believe you should clarify those statements....:huh:

[downtownparks]

I believe that she is saying I am envious of her because I force myself to stick to my convictions, and take every issue at face value, rather than blow with the wind and take whatever position I feel is more popular.

[jbm32206]

Let's keep this a respectful debate/discussion.
I know that we all have our passions,
but let's not insult one another. It's simply not needed.
We're all adults, so let's show a bit more respect for one another's views.
:handshake:

[Señora]

Delusional --
Clerambault syndrome, erotomania, monosymptomatic hypochondriasis, morbid jealousy, old maid's insanity, Othello syndrome, or just plain paranoia.

[Mr. Oscar]

Skot,

You are an idiot. I give those people in Springfield credit for moving down there. Take the good with the bad??? They shouldn't have too. They didn't invested a lot of money and sweat equity into reviving that neighborhood so you can ride in there like Charlemagne and spout out your views. They have worked wonders down there.

I saw your kid on Channel 12 a few weeks ago verbally abusing the school board. I would slap my kids if they spoke to adults like that. They would be eating soap for a month.

And if you think the firefighters are just going to let you control the destiny of their museum, you had better think twice. They are bound by tradition and both number 5 and the museum are important to them. They will handle it in due time.

As for the Springfield issue, why don't you buy out your neighbors and let the halfway house move out of Springfield to your street for a while.

There you go. Now you can spend countless hours attacking me.

[jbm32206]

Let me reinterate...
please, let's not :No: resort to flinging insults.

Share your opposing views, which are always welcomed,
but let's do it without insulting one another.

:handshake: :group talking: :handshake:

[downtownparks]

Im rubber, your glue? :-D:-D

Thanks Claude and JBM. And I guess I shouldn't be baiting, or in this case, respond to the baiting, of people... Its not polite.

I think that people who dont understand the problems of Springfield think its as simple as "not moving here". Skot screams and complains about School House 4 and Firehouse 5 (I agree with both issues to a degree) but is perfectly willing to let a neighborhood that dates back to the 1860's fall by the way side so he feels better about himself when he goes to bed at night.

The issues that we face are not unique to us, and I would not ask any other neighborhood to bear this cross any more than we have to. I dont want our problems to move to Moncrief or Durkeeville and more than I want them to move next door to Skot. I think that if the problems were spread across all communities, you have a better shot of fixing it. We all have drug addicts, and criminals and sexual predators. We should all be responsible for dealing with them, not just the traditionally poor neighborhoods with no voice.

[Skot David Wilson]

Here's the deal, so you do know.
THERE IS an overlay 0f 300 sqft per person. That WILL NOT change.
BUT
there needs to be an exception made for these halfway houses.
They ARE LIMITED by the state to 20 residents, can't and never have exceeded that.
Say you have five rooms set up as bedrooms, each room is 12 by 12, with two bunk beds, which make 20 residents....
THAT is NOT bad. They are only there at night, like one big family....
The military is much more confined, and so are RV's and boats, both of which I have been in.
Every summer growing up my mom, dad, sister and I would pack up for two months and travel, or stay seasonal at campgrounds, and that was a 21 foot trailer. We did fine for showers and eating and everything.
I lived on a boat that was 34 foot, but that was a sleeper cabin and a tiny shower/bath, and when I had company it was just fine.
Who is anyone to dictate "quality of life" for someone else?
You're saying ONE person needs a 10 by 30 or 15 by 15 area to live, and anything else is human suffering?
Get a freakin life!
I live in a 3/2 on the westside, heated area is 1,100, and I had my wife, son, and two nephews at one time, and things were fine.
My son and nephew shared one room, 10 by 11, one nephew had a 10 by 11, and my wife and I have a 12 by 11 bedroom, and we are just fine.
I know other families that have four kids, six people in about 1,200, and they are just fine, and one family with four girls, one boy, and four adults
in a 1,350 4/2, and they are fine. We have had sleep-overs where my son had three boys and one nephew had two kids. That's one weekend with 10 people in a less than 1,200 square foot house. Everyone was fine.
Okay, let's apply the law to the full and equal extent.
I want every room inspected to make sure parents who share a bedroom have the proper square footage... let's see how that flys.
Bet 30% are illegal to the letter of the "stupid" law.
And, oh, don't ever let your kids have a sleepover and exceed the law, or have family come stay for the holidays and violate the law either.
And NO PARTIES that exceed the law either.
If done right, 100 square foot is fine, but THAT's NOT THE ISSUE....
The issue is to allow these grandfathered establishments to continue as they have been for years doing great work where the quality of life is improved by the wonderful experience of someone having a roof, food, place to do laundry and eat, leave for work, and get re-established at.
The issue is allowing a few halfway houses to continue as they have been, NOT 25 people, but 20, in a 2,500 to 3,000 square foot house that is designed to operate accomodating the residents, and is already ceritified, approved, and licensed by the State to do so, and if there was an issue, they would have addressed already.
The REAL reason is to quash these existing halfway houses and force them out, and just because you come in with money and rehab something, it does NOT give you the right to use code to deprive these establishments of their function or prosperity.
They were there first, like four of them, and NO MORE will be generated by this allowance.
The overlay was added to them.
Now it is being used by snobs to force out an element they don't understand and somehow feel superior to.
If you are decent people, you will join in defending these people and allowing them to continue as they have been.
I am sure if you want to, you can ask to and spend a weekend living there on a fact finding mission.
Bet you make some good friends and walk away with a different attitude.
If you are good people you should be defending the homeowners at Craig Field from letting the JAA extend the runway...
If you are good people you will Save Station Five, Annie Lytle, and other historic features of this city.
If you are good people you would spend ONE DAY a month, just PART of the day, helping a teacher at a class or mentoring and tutoring kids.
If you are good people you will use as much effort as you use to post something and do some research into problems and then act to fix the things you know are problems.
When is the last time you helped someone you didn't even know, or knew was hurting or down on their luck?
Today I spent an hour and a half at Ramona Elementary on the garden project, but mostly gave a discussion on history to help kids understand the material, and oh, went to Ed White and talked to Jim Clark, and am still trying to formalize the tutoring program and am starting to mentor a kid who is living with his grandmother because his mom is a biker-slut and her old man is an Outlaw and his mom is more interested in getting high and drinking than being a mother.
The mother needs her ass beat, but since that is illegal, I'll do the next best thing and be a decent male role modle for a kid who is angry, frustrated, hurt, failing, and needs someone to step up where life has gone bad for him.
So please preach to me just one more time on how allowing one small group of people to continue doing the good work they have been doing for years is something you don't want in a neighborhood you now call yours because you "invested" in it, when they were there first.

[downtownparks]

The law is specifically FOR halfway houses, not normal residential homes Skot. THIS IS WHY THERE IS AN ISSUE!

Also, just so you know, the law that covers the rest of the city is more restrictive than 100sq ft...

Again, please feel free to come in here, and live next door to house with 20 unrelated adults in it, and see how that works for ya man. Put up or shut up. I have lived here for 4 years, and am trying to push positive change in my community. You chastise the rest of us for not showboating in front of city council. When was the last time worked for real change in the community?

[Skot David Wilson]

And Oscar.....
My son had sent Wise a letter and never even got a form letter "thank you for writing my office" response... When Wise turned his eyes away, Alex was offended and insulted. he has been taught to understand that when you are talking to someone if they divert their eyes it is disrespectful. Alex understand way much for his young age, and the decisions of the School Board effect him and he has more right as a student to speak than even a parent.
How do you tell a kid about Patrick Henry and our Founding Fathers then deny him his right to speak out when he has been wronged? He wasn't disrespectful to anyone but Wise, and Wise had it coming.
And JUST because you made an investment does not give you the right to alter a practice that has positive effects upon society just because you don't like it. If you didn't like them, then you should have never moved there where they were first.... not complain because they are there.
As far as the homeless and crack heads and shopping cart people, I had them out here near Lane and I-10 and I helped clean them up and out as much as I could. I would welcome a halfway house next to my own as much I would a new neighbor. I agree to weed out the sex offenders, but apart from that, not a problem.
Now as far as Five goes, you don't know crap, I do. As an ex-VFF and knowing the wrath any of my JFRD brothers would face if they spoke out I don't mind speaking up.
But you see, most people in this city do not speak out or up. They complain, but don't do a whole lot.
They either feel powerless against the big money and the machine, but my middle name is David, so find my ass a rock...
The overlay is fine, that isn't the question. The only question is do we allow the four or so halfway houses that have been there for over a collective century to keep doing what they have been doing without any problems for so long so well.
Don't complain about street drunks when these places help fix the problem.
If you have a problem with Shands kicking out street trash, I suggest you take that matter up with them.
Try FIXING the problem rather than moving it, or does your "investment" mean that you are given carte blanche to expell aspects of a community you entered into just because you want to turn Springfield into another Avondale?
I have restored old houses in blighted neighborhoods and seen progressive people work towards real solutions rather than just "move" the problem.
And by the way, how much money did you guys get from the taxpayers to go into your new restored luxury homes. Why can't my home, which is offically 50 years old and thus also "historic", not open to matching grants and tax breaks?
Your nerve astounds me.
Go spend a day helping some kids at a school, or mentor a troubled youth before they fall between the cracks, then come back with a real foundation to confront me and what I am doing or saying.

[jbm32206]

The REAL reason is to quash these existing halfway houses and force them out, and just because you come in with money and rehab something, it does NOT give you the right to use code to deprive these establishments of their function or prosperity.
They were there first, like four of them, and NO MORE will be generated by this allowance.
The overlay was added to them.
Now it is being used by snobs to force out an element they don't understand and somehow feel superior to.
If you are decent people, you will join in defending these people and allowing them to continue as they have been.
I am sure if you want to, you can ask to and spend a weekend living there on a fact finding mission.
Bet you make some good friends and walk away with a different attitude.
You are so off base! I do not appreciate your insults, nor your assumption to understand where any of us living in Springfield stand on the overlay issue. Just because we don't want to acceptable footage to be less than what the rest of the city has, doesn't make us snobs. This has nothing to do with anyone feeling or believing their superior to anyone...that's an arrogant and ignorant statement to make and blanket upon us.

Nobody is making any attempt to deprive anyone of housing, so where you come off with making a statement like that, is beyond me. It wouldn't matter if your house cost 45 grand or 450 grand...it's a matter of what's right.

Neighbors in Springfield have visited one of these establishments, had dinner with the residents and had nothing but wonderful things to say about them. At no time, have they been made to feel that they're not welcomed here, so don't make statements that aren't true!

Just because we want what's legally fair, and if that means ensuring the overlay is protected, does not make us less than decent people! Plus, you've no idea how long some of us have lived here, so to assume that they were here first, doesn't fly either.

I suggest you get off that high horse and stop the brow-beating of those you may have opposing views with. That's not the way to win over anyone into supporting any efforts you ask of us.

[downtownparks]

I think its important to mention that for every one decent establishment, there are four that are taking disability checks, and making people live in swill. I know one place that had someone die (natural causes). The next day they went in, ripped the carpet out, dumped it on the curb, and started shoving people back in that same room again.

Know what you are talking about Skot before you take to task the very people who live with, and understand the good and bad sides of these places.

[jbm32206]

Try FIXING the problem rather than moving it, or does your "investment" mean that you are given carte blanche to expell aspects of a community you entered into just because you want to turn Springfield into another Avondale?
I have restored old houses in blighted neighborhoods and seen progressive people work towards real solutions rather than just "move" the problem.
And by the way, how much money did you guys get from the taxpayers to go into your new restored luxury homes. Why can't my home, which is offically 50 years old and thus also "historic", not open to matching grants and tax breaks?
I do my share in the neighborhood, I get out there with the other block captains, cleaning up the trash that the scum bags leave all over our parks, the needles, used condoms, beer cans...you name it, I've scooped it up into trash bags...I've raked and shoveled plenty. As for helping these people, I work hard for my money, and am not about to hand it out to someone that just wants to buy more drugs or another cheap beer in a brown bag, that they'll leave laying in the streets.

If it makes you happy, the work I've done to my home isn't and hasn't been funded through anyone but ME! So your comments are worthless about that. Also, if I wanted to live in a neighborhood such as Avondale, then my zip code would reflect that. I happen to like where I live, and am not wanting it to be anything other than a nice, family friendly neighborhood...and have been working hard to get it there, for well over 10 years now.

It's nice that you opt to help someone out, and I've done my share, in my way all of my adult life...so stop passing judgments when you really haven't a clue about me or the others in my neighborhood.

[downtownparks]

I suggest you get off that high horse and stop the brow-beating of those you may have opposing views with. That's not the way to win over anyone into supporting any efforts you ask of us.[/COLOR]

I have to tell you Joan, I am not sure I agree that he should even have a say. This is our community, we are the ones who deal with the issues day in and day out, and at the end of the day, it was our community that decided the level of social service burden that we shouldered was too much. Bottom line. I can think of 5 halfway houses within 5 blocks of my house, including the one in question. I wonder how many Skot has near his house?

[Skot David Wilson]

I'm not on a high horse about things, but I want a solid reason why four halfway houses that have a collective century plus history of helping people and are grandfathered establishments can't continue as the state licensed facilities they have been.
?
I would object to any new ones with anyone who objected to new ones, but that isn't the issue.
If a new one wanted in I would be just as loud with a resounding "No" to them. But they have the right to continue, because it is a quality of life issue for those people. It is a betterment of their quality of life, and society on the whole, to have them continue as they have been for years.
And if anyone lives next to one, I will trade deeds.
I live in Old Normandy, across from the Normandy Wal-Mart. I got rid of three crack houses when this neighborhood took a downward slide in the early 90's, and many homes are getting flipped as those older residents sell or die and it turns over.
I fought to keep Normandy Elementary open, an "A" school that was closed by DCPS when all surrounding schools were a "C", and was president back then of the Normandy Community Association. While with ShAdCo I fought to get rid of crack houses in the area and did, and there are very few street whores walking near I-10 & Lane these days.
I work with and at Ramona Elementary, and am working to get all buses to come equipped with air conditioning.
I stopped that fight until 2008 to allow the transition of Ed Pratt-Dannals, because it was the right thing to do.
I painted two area ball fields, one completely out of my own pocket, donated paint to churches and other groups, and help several people when I can, including a family of five living in a motel at 10 and Lane....
I am not trying to insult anyone, but damn, please just let these established things continue and yes, prevent any new ones. I only agree with a reasonable exception for these few halfway houses, not the rooming houses or anything else.
One simple exception for a few halfway houses is very reasonable.
No offense to those who I know are decent people, but please understand that they have their rights, moreso because they were there before the overlay, for years...
same thing for Craig Field residents.
They have the right to keep Craig as it is now, because simply they were promised that, and were for the most part there when the promise was made.
300 is too excessive, and 100 maybe too light. I say calculate the least square footage halfway house and apply the existing state, which supercees local law, license permit, which is 20 residents, and calculate off of that and never allow an increase than what they were allowed by the state license, which is max 20 residents.
They have had it that way for years, they are entitled to stay that way.
It is that simple.

[jbm32206]

There's no effort, to my knowledge to have the halfway houses shut down. This isn't and hasn't been the issue with the overlay language that's being discussed. It comes down to the square footage allowed, per adult residing in these places. If you want compassion, then force these owners to allow for more footage per adult, instead of cramming as many bodies in and collecting the fees for them. That's the issue.

True, we don't want any more to spring up in the neighborhood, especially when so many are housing sexual offenders...and we have the right to protest that.

[jbm32206]

I have to tell you Joan, I am not sure I agree that he should even have a say. This is our community, we are the ones who deal with the issues day in and day out, and at the end of the day, it was our community that decided the level of social service burden that we shouldered was too much. Bottom line. I can think of 5 halfway houses within 5 blocks of my house, including the one in question. I wonder how many Skot has near his house?
Agreed, it is our neighborhood and it's our fight...and I'm not going to let anyone not living in this area to begin to dictate what is best for us.

I also didn't appreciate trying to put anyone down in this area, that may have taken advantage of those facade grants...it's those of us that moved into what was once a horrible neighborhood, and have brought life back into it. I'll be damned if I'm going to be put down because of that and because I want to keep what I've worked so hard for.

[downtownparks]

All we want is for them to comply to the Zoning Skot. If the economics of it don't work, I am sorry, but they need to comply to the law.

If economics really mattered to them, I don't think they would be using houses that cost an arm and a leg to heat and cool, they wouldnt put thier "clients" in the middle of an area where there is still a decent drug trade (its getting better, buts not gone all together)

Why not buy a nice energy efficient house with nice sized common areas in a part of town where land is still inexpensive, and you can actully get these guys geographically away from the drugs they are trying to stay off of.

Just so you know, Skot, were this all came from, the people pushing for the legislation to be "corrected" are being fined by the city for having too many bodies in their facility. rather than lower the number of people they have, they decided to cause this whole bruhaha, and try to get the law changes to what they say it was always meant to say.

Nobody was trying to shut them down, just to comply with the letter of the law. Big difference.

[Skot David Wilson]

Personally I think "child" sex offenders shouldn't be allowed near communities with kids. I think there should be restrictions on that.
But to "add in" the overlay of 300 sq ft IS to put these places out of business, and they have been just fine for years that way.
The state says they meet their requirements, and that should be fine. The Fire Marshal approved them for years, so they are fine. They had a c/o for years, so they are fine.
If you want protections from sex fiends, that's fine, and I'll come down and support that so fully.
But to impose this upon them at 300 is to remove them, so please don't anyone pretend that's not the agenda there.
And by the way, like I asked, how much money in grants did you guys get? Just because you are investing in home there why should you get matching grants and I can't?
Is that fair?
So since you probally did, that's my tax dollars for a home improvement that I can't even apply to my own home, so I guess that kind of makes it my business. How many of you got thousands of tax dollars to help fix up some old homes, and then now want to remove halfway houses using the overlay as the means?
It really is simple.... If you don't like halfway houses don't move into an area with them then try any means you can to destroy and remove them.
If they are fine with it, don't impose your act of kindness to shut them down... such caring people!
Just let them be, and I'd say get a law drafted to restrict sex offenders maybe, but let these people be.
And that was a good question, I wonder how many I do have around here. I think I'll find out and ask them if they want any free paint.

[downtownparks]

The law on the books says 300 sq ft. The owners of the facilities are trying to get the law changed, not us.

[Skot David Wilson]

and downtown, the only reason anyone would try to force the "letter of the law" is to move them. You enforce that and they can't afford to operate.
That means they shut down...
but that's right, then the place gets sold and some yuppie couple moves in... problem gone...
Downtown is close to all bus routes. I could see them out here, waiting for an hour for a bus, and walking miles to get to one in some places.
Most are alcoholics anyway, which is easy to get anywhere.
Please no more, you have my brain frying thinking how you can be so mean-spirited towards them.
What they need is a compromise, like I suggested.
calculate the homes as they stand and are operating, which might be 125 sq ft or 150 sq ft a person, then go with that, but require that they never exceed what they are licensed for now, and can never increase in size, or add facilities to add more people, or new ones... even add no sex offenders...
but don't pretend please to be oh, so concerned for them.
It doesn't wash.
If they were anywhere else, you wouldn't care if they were stacked like cord wood or even in a facility as long as you didn't have to see them.
I haven't seen one of you offer a solution or a compromise, or answer how much grant money YOU got.
I can hear Cyndi Lauper singing now...
"Money, money changes everything..."
and they are simply trying to stay alive amidst those that would abolish them

[jbm32206]

Once again, it's not about anyone trying to shut them down...it's about the footage that's acceptable per adult living space. Like Dan said, it's the people who run these places that started all of this, so they can place even more bodies for more money...they're not concerned about the people, to them, it's all about the money they bring in.

I don't know why you keep bringing up the facade grant money, which by the way, has since ended...it was only for a limited time and it's no longer available. And whether or not anyone took advantage of it has absolutely nothing to do with this issue. So I suggest you stop trying to make someone feel guilty about whether they may have used grant money to help restore their homes. Nor would anyone that did, have any say as to whom else the city should make it availble too...that's not within our power.

Again, I can't say it enough to finally make you realize...it's not and never has been about trying to shut these places down....that's not the issue.

[downtownparks]

There are no longer incentives to move in to this community, and even when there was, you have to be under a certain economic level to be approved for them.

To be frank most people I know who took them, regretted it because it means you cant touch the equity in your own home without the mayors signature, for 10 years and only then if you are using it to work on your home.

Again, your delving into areas you really know nothing about. I am also shocked that you don't see the benefit of saving Jacksonville's oldest suburb. You claim to love history, but you are willing to let Springfield circle the drain, when it is one of the largest mostly intact historic districts in Florida.

[jbm32206]

You've hit the nail on the head with that one, Dan! It's our blood, sweat and tears that are saving the history here!

[Skot David Wilson]

I talked to both side at the LUZ meeting. I talked to a bunch of residents who would suffer because of 300.
I talked to people who went through the programs, some of which live even in Springfield, who didn't suffer at all from living there, but benefitted, just like Springfield did from having them there.
These are regulated highly structured establishments. When I first came to Jax, I lived right off Hemming Plaza above the Stout Shop, two doors away from the new library.
I am glad Springfield is getting restored, but I also feel they have a right to stay as they are.
This matter was discussed and apporved in some aspects back when the overlay was imposed.
It got rid of the boarding houses, which were basically drug hotels.
Job done, now leave them alone, let them continue but yeah, deal with the sex offenders and get them gone. I have no mercy for kiddie foocares.
And as far as grants, the point is those who did use them got government money. These places are self-funded.
Stop trying to hurt them, and let them live as neighbors you accepted when you moved there.
That's my point. Why didn't you guys raise the issue before you moved in or when the overlay was placed into effect?
They did, and thought they would be okay.
I made a few other points no one addressed.
You can call me if you want... 781-9473.
I welcome the debate.

[downtownparks]

but don't pretend please to be oh, so concerned for them.
It doesn't wash.

Oh, Im sorry, do you have the market cornered on caring for people? I didn't realize that you have to be pushing your ideals down others throats to be considered compassionate, rather than just working to make your own community safe and quiet.

You can call me any name you want, yuppie, gentrifier, callused, whatever. The bottom line is, I came to the community with my wife to learn more about the neighborhood where her family came to live in this country. While here it reminded me a lot of the communities near my beloved city of Boston, and we thought we might like to try to save the history of the community and help the revival of this once great community. There are many who came before us, and there will be those after we are gone going the same work.

We have no desire to push people with less money than us out (a very select group, I assure you) or any other foul thing you may accuse me of. Aside from the family ties, we moved our family (including an infant at the time) here because we both work downtown. It made economic sense and we both hated the drive across the bridge from our home in Arlington. While I did keep my oldest daughter in private school for a couple of years, that was more for consistency than anything else. She is now enrolled at Susie Tolbert in Durkeeville, were she is very much in the minority but thriving regardless of the massive changes in her learning environment.

I embrace these challenges, and I look forward to continuing to watch the community around me grow. I have met with people from Durkeeville who want change, and I have met with people from Brentwood and Metronorth who are instilling change. Have I ever gone and shown my ass at city council? Yup, but not often, and only when I didnt think I was able to get my message across when I dealt with the councilmember one on one.

Don't claim to know me, or my neighborhood, dont claim to understand our motivations of why we do the things we do. While I have politely teased you about your posts being a lot like Radio Talk Show Hosts, I have chosen to not engage you because its clear you are blindly passionate, and me getting into pissing contests will prove nothing.

We may have to simply agree to disagree on this issue, and that is fine, but dont ever claim to know the motivations of a person whom you have never even met.

[jbm32206]

This is going in circles, and you're not listening to what we've said. I don't know where you got the impression that we're trying to shut them down or boot these people out....that's simply NOT true!

You've got your mind made up, whether or not the facts are straight...which by the way, they aren't. To quote myself....

Once again, it's not about anyone trying to shut them down...it's about the footage that's acceptable per adult living space. Like Dan said, it's the people who run these places that started all of this, so they can place even more bodies for more money...they're not concerned about the people, to them, it's all about the money they bring in.

Again, I can't say it enough to finally make you realize...it's not and never has been about trying to shut these places down....that's not the issue.

[Skot David Wilson]

Dan, you threw the first stone at me if you read page one of this thread. It was implied that I don't know anything and I was insulted first. I know you guys and I agree on a lot of stuff, and I don't discount anyone, but it was implied and stated that I am full of emotion and no facts. I spent two hours talking to people at LUZ and last meeting at Council, and decided to speak while it was going on after listening to both sides. It became clear to me that if the 300 square foot overlay was not waived for this specific grandfathered use that these halfway houses, and those they serve, including society as a whole, would suffer.
I'm from the Jersey Shore, years ago now, and Springfield looks like home to me in many ways.
I appreciate what other do who are motivated like me, but look at who cast insults tonight first.
I am very far from stupid, and am entitled to my opinion, so don't dare imply that I don't have the right to speak about other areas of Jacksonville. I didn't consolidate it, but it is one city, which is why I stand in support of Craig Field residents for their rights as well.
I would hope others would see beyond the end of their street as well.
I think some sort of compromise might be able to be reached that will allow the halfway houses that are good to co-exist with those who want to live in Springfield.
If anyone wants to go by the letter of every law, then they should insure that they are in compliance with everything all the time.
Remember to get that building permit to change an outlet!
I am standing up in support of the state licensed, fully state certified halfway houses with a long history of success that should be able to conduct business as they have been for years without any restrictions that would hurt them, or the wonderful work they do. I was attacked for that position as if I was a tratior or a monster or stupid.
I resent that, and regret nothing I said that may have equally offended anyone who didn't like my opinion.
I didn't state or start mine without investigation and reflection, and surely didn't say anything at first to warrant the insults that flew at me first.
My passions are directed by conscience and with a decent amount of information and insight.
I refrained from speaking in support of a historic designation of a church that was on the agenda because I have never seen it, and don't know jack about it.
And I support the preservation of history.
So think what you will, but I have sound and valid reasons for my opinions and actions, and take serious offense to attacks upon my character, directly or by proxy, even when that is calling my ideas stupid or wrong without discussing it, and what I believe and why, with me first.
I'm getting ready for the new South Park and am making tea. My offer for live discussion via Ma Bell still stands.